January 18, 2005
Rumsfeld, Iraq, and Troop Levels
Back on my snarky comment post touching upon Rumsfeld and troop levels, Donna from Pajama Pundits posted an excellent comment several weeks ago. I apologize for the incredible lateness of this response. I started writing it up, and then got caught up in other things, and then this started growing into a project all of its own. Hopefully this was worth the wait — not that I actually think anybody was holding their breath for this post, or anything.
Recap
For a quick recap, Gregory Djerejian wrote a post (one of many) criticizing Rumsfeld, specifically on how he refuses to increase the number of troops in Iraq to the necessary level to ensure security and provide the best hope for a successful occupation. One of the commenters on that post kept asking what possible reason could Rumsfeld have for not increasing troop levels if it’s such a no-brainer.
Those of you familiar with my Case Against Bush post already know that my response was that Rumsfeld and Bush simply don’t care all that much what actually happens in Iraq. After all, it matches the pattern of other policies, and as I responded to him, the most striking example is the tax cut:
Recall [Bush] proposed [the tax cut] during an economic boom, using supply-side arguments to counter critics warning about it being inflationary. And indeed, it’s designed as a supply-side tax cut, focusing on the higher tax brackets who are more likely to invest the savings to spur production. When the recession hit, he marketed the same tax cut as a Keynesian recession-fighter — yet spurring supply is counter-productive when you have a CapEx recession due to excess inventories. A clear case where Bush obviously didn’t really care about the actual real-world consequences of the policy. He merely picked whatever theory was convenient at the time to sell the policy that he wanted (and there are huge parallels to how he used intelligence to sell the war rather than to determine if war was the right decision).
Indeed, I have yet to hear a better explanation of why Bush would pass a supply-side tax cut to fight a CapEx recession. And in addition to explaining that case, it also explains many Bush administration policies like the steel tariffs, subsidy-laden farm bill, and Medicare reform. It also would explain the low troop levels — as well as the reason why Rumsfeld still has his job despite Abu Ghraib.
One obvious reason Bush and Rumsfeld might not want to increase troop levels is cost. Outside of a draft (and Thorley Winston has an excellent comment at Winds of Change explaining why a draft is a ridiculous idea), increasing the size of a volunteer army requires increasing the incentives to volunteer, which means an increase in pay, not just to new recruits, but to everybody already enlisted. Such a cost would probably require drastic measures, such as rolling back Bush’s tax cuts or Medicare reform. But these policies were prioritized higher than success in Iraq — just like Iraq was prioritized higher than dealing (militarily or otherwise) with more immediate and graver threats, like North Korea, Iran, and Al Qaeda.
And this is where Donna came in. She made a number of points, so I’ll address them individually, not necessarily in the order she made them.
Media clowns?
In her comment, she said, “nobody in the Bush administration can do anything — good or bad — without being criticized mercilessly for it.” Personally, I think that says more about Bush than the media, as I don’t recall his father or Reagan getting nearly this much criticism from conservatives and nonpartisans. She continued:
The media clowns looking for somebody, anybody, especially a Republican, to criticize Bush so they can immediately rush to air with “nanananabooboo… gotcha” silences (and sickens) reasonable voices on both sides.
While I certainly think bloggers are making the traditional media increasingly irrelevant, I’ve never believed in media bias, since supply will react to meet demand in a free market. But regardless of all that, Greg Djerejian is certainly no clown, and neither is Dan Drezner (furthermore, Djerejian supported Bush). Indeed, both are prime examples of reasonable voices — the rare kind of voices that call things as they see ’em, rather than to further a partisan agenda. And like Phil Carter, the kind of voices that are well respected by both sides, and examples that every blogger should aspire towards.
In fact, this “calls ’em as it sees ’em” quality can be said of most of the conservatives that they cited. Recall that I said:
…there’ve been quite a few critics of Rumsfeld from the right lately, including Senators John McCain and Chuck Hagel, which is not that new, nor surprising. But now it’s also coming from the likes of Senator Trent Lott, Senator Norm Coleman, Senator Susan Collins, Norman Schwarzkopf, Joe Scarborough, Thomas Donnelly, and the editor of The Weekly Standard, William Kristol (links via Djerejian here and here and also via Dan Drezner, another long-time conservative critic of Rumsfeld).
I hardly think Djerejian or Drezner are silencing reasonable voices here (especially since they both have open comments with surprisingly reasonable discussions for blogs so highly-trafficked). Indeed, Bush’s insistence on keeping Rumsfeld fits the pattern I’ve been pointing out. After all, it’s one thing to ignore criticism from liberals, which can be motivated by partisanship (although I always urge people not to discount anything out of hand). But from your own party? Especially from straight-shooting conservatives who are very likely saying these things because they believe them. Ignoring such criticism pretty much fits the pattern of an administration that doesn’t particularly care about real-world results, and is hardly surprising since they’ve also ignored the advice of their own people.
So I think claims about Rumsfeld’s competence are definitely worth looking into.
Troop levels in Iraq
Donna also said:
I don’t see where a massive increase in numbers would accomplish very much.
…
Would it not turn world opinion against us even more? Would it not demoralize, perhaps even alienate the peaceful majority of Iraqis who now support our presence there? Would it not look like we really were into ‘empire building’? Would it not likely incite more hostility from… say, Iran?
This is really the crux of the issue, and something that I haven’t had much of a handle on. In regards to world opinion and the hearts and minds of Iraqis, this is certainly a valid concern. Of course, it could have been addressed by merely avoiding the invasion in the first place. This was a perfectly viable option, as Iraq was known to be a non-immediate secondary threat, with a nuclear program well behind that of Iran and North Korea (especially since they did not have their own nuclear power plants and thus were not capable of creating weapons-grade fissile material).
At the very least, the invasion and occupation should have used a much broader multi-national force (as in first Gulf War) to allay the inevitable suspicions of empire building. The obvious mistake was the Bush administrations refusal to trust the UN inspections team just because they didn’t give results that Bush wanted (which also fits the pattern). Of course, after our going to war over the objections of possible allies and with mostly allies whose own electorates opposed the war, like Britain, Australia, and Spain (which may have helped lead to the Spanish Bombings), and after the disbanding of the Iraqi army, that avenue is now closed.
So at this point, the only way to get more troops in Iraq is via more American troops. Why would we want that? Well, the best thing we can do to win the hearts and minds of Iraqis is to ensure their security, and to make their lives better than they were under Saddam. And this is so important that you need to do it even if you don’t have a broad enough coalition to prevent anti-U.S. resentment. It would also have helped greatly to prioritize the security of Iraqis over that of Americans, but that required a lot more troops, or else we wouldn’t have had to create the Green Zone in the first place.
But I’m no military expert, so I did a bit of poking around. Here’s some of what I’ve found.
Phil Carter
A couple of months ago, Paul Bremer made some remarks on troop levels. Phil Carter, a former Army officer and longtime writer on military affairs (and someone with a reputation of calling it as it is), had this reaction after Bremer quickly backtracked under pressure:
Sorry Mr. Bremer — you had it right the first time. And don’t worry about the backlash — you’re in good company. I’m just glad you had the intellectual honesty to say what so many smart folks have been saying for nearly a year and a half: that we did a spectacular job of winning major combat operations, but failed to put the troops on the ground to secure the peace. This failure, driven in large part by bad judgment in the Office of the Secretary of Defense (see, e.g., the decision to rewrite the Army’s TPFDD and deployment orders before the war), continues to impede the ability of U.S. forces to establish a secure environment in Iraq.
Unfortunately, this is anything but a new lesson. As Amb. James Dobbins writes in his RAND study America’s Role in Nation-Building: From Germany to Iraq, we have learned this lesson over and over again during the small and large wars of the 20th Century — in Nazi Germany, Japan, Korea, Lebanon, Panama, Somalia, Haiti, Bosnia, Kosovo and Afghanistan. Winning the war is one thing; winning the peace is quite another. It quite often requires more troops and resources to effectively secure the peace than to win the war. Technology can only do so much to help win the peace.
Wolfowitz has claimed that it was not logical for the occupation to need more soldiers than were required to win the war. But while it might not seem intuitive (a better word to describe what he meant, because he didn’t actually make a logical argument), our recent experience has shown exactly that. Carter elaborates much more on that in this Washington Monthly piece from June 2003, discussing the examples of Bosnia, Kosovo, and Afghanistan. Here’s what he says about Bosnia:
In Bosnia, America won its war with a combination of muscular diplomacy, air power, and covertly armed Bosnian-Muslim and Croat proxy armies on the ground. That mix of tools brought about the Dayton Accords in the fall of 1995. But when it came to making that treaty work, America had to send in its heaviest armor divisions, putting a Bradley fighting vehicle on nearly every street corner to enforce the peace. NATO initially sent 60,000 soldiers into Bosnia, and almost eight years after Dayton, America still has several thousand soldiers on the ground in Bosnia, as part of a 13,000-soldier NATO force. Winning hearts and minds took a backseat to overawing malcontent factions with an overwhelming and, for all intents and purposes, enduring show of force.
Later on, Carter explains why it takes so much more:
First, the simple question of keeping order: “It’s frustrating; we do not have the personnel or the training to be policemen,” Army civil affairs Maj. Jack Nales told The Washington Post in Baghdad. In one encounter, Nales had to explain the lack of order to civilians. “I’m sorry the police agencies and judicial system isn’t [sic] here. I’m sorry we don’t have enough soldiers to help you.”
Second, only a few soldiers — civil affairs specialists, military police, and medical and engineering units, mostly — are specially equipped for the actual work of nation-building. The vast majority of the rest provide security for these lightly armed units. An engineering platoon of 40 soldiers might need an entire company of infantry (120 men) for security, depending on the terrain. A lack of security entails cutting the number of nation-building missions. If only three infantry companies are available, then only three missions can be undertaken at any one time — essentially the problem in Iraq today.
Third, without a secure environment, no one else can do their job. Weapons investigators are hamstrung if they are constantly getting shot at or inspecting sites whose security evaporates the moment they leave. Oil crews and aid workers don’t want to be shot on the job any more than soldiers do, and security concerns have slowed progress on every project in Iraq — from opening the port at Umm Qasr to reopening the oil fields at Kirkuk.
The whole piece is definitely worth reading.
The Belmont Club
In addition, Djerejian recently linked to a post by wretchard at The Belmont Club, where a reader provides four links to pieces on troop strengths in occupations, including a table showing the ratio of troops to population in past occupations. Djerejian notes that the table “showcases that Iraq is on the low end (particularly where one faces a significant insurgency).”
Also cited by both wretchard and Djerejian is a Stephen Budiansky piece in the Washington Post:
When Germany surrendered in May 1945, … Army plans called for an occupation force of some 400,000 in the American zone for the first 18 months — or one U.S. soldier for every 40 Germans.
When NATO forces went into Kosovo in 1999, they followed the same proven formula: 50,000 troops for a population of 2 million, one soldier for every 40 inhabitants. A recent Rand Corp. study by military analyst James Quinlivan concluded that the bare minimum ratio to provide security for the inhabitants of an occupied territory, let alone deal with an active insurgency, is one to 50.
In Iraq today, coalition forces number about 160,000, or one for every 160 Iraqis.
Which is a pretty stark contrast. Now, wretchard isn’t as harsh on Rumsfeld as Djerejian is, pointing out that the recipe for success is not nearly as simple as merely adding more troops1 — but he doesn’t seem to dispute the assessment that more troops were needed as a prerequisite for a successful occupation.
James Dobbins
Similar arguments are made by James Dobbins (mentioned earlier by Carter), who is the Director of the International Security and Defense Policy Center at RAND. From a Fred Kaplan article in Slate:
Dobbins was Bush’s special envoy to post-Taliban Afghanistan. Through the 1990s, under Presidents Clinton and (the first) Bush, Dobbins oversaw postwar reconstruction in Kosovo, Bosnia, Haiti, and Somalia. Now a policy director at the Washington office of the Rand Corp., he has co-authored a book, America’s Role in Nation-Building: From Germany to Iraq…, which concludes — based on research done mainly before Gulf War II got under way — that nearly everything this administration has said and done about postwar Iraq is wrong.
One pertinent lesson Dobbins uncovered is that the key ingredient — the “most important determinant,” as he puts it — of successful democratic nation-building in a country after wartime is not the country’s history of Westernization, middle-class values, or experience with democracy, but rather the “level of effort” made by the foreign nation-builders, as measured in their troops, time, and money.
To see just how wrong Wolfowitz was, look at Dobbins’ account of how many troops have been needed to create stability in previous postwar occupations. Kosovo is widely considered the most successful exercise in recent nation-building. Dobbins calculates that establishing a Kosovo-level occupation-force in Iraq (in terms of troops per capita) would require 526,000 troops through the year 2005. A Bosnia-level occupation would require 258,000 troops — which could be reduced to 145,000 by 2008. Yet there are currently only about 150,000 foreign (mainly American) troops in Iraq — about the same as the number that fought the war.
…
Bringing in more troops and at least some police after the war would also have meant fewer American and Iraqi casualties. Dobbins is categorical on this point: “The highest levels of casualties have occurred in the operations with the lowest levels of U.S. troops.” In fact, he adds, “Only when the number of stabilization troops has been low in comparison to the population” — such as in Somalia, Afghanistan, and now Iraq — “have U.S. forces suffered or inflicted significant casualties.” By contrast, in Germany, Japan, Bosnia, and Kosovo — where troop levels were high — Americans suffered no postwar combat deaths.
And this was written before the war, long before we knew there would be an insurgency of this size or scope.
So as far as I can tell, many experts have made a strong case before and during the occupation that we needed many more troops, and I haven’t really seen much in the way of explaining why this might be wrong — beyond Wolfowitz’s overly simplistic “logic.”
The time factor
Of course, we can’t simply just add more troops, because as Donna wrote in her comment, increasing troop levels isn’t just a question of cost, since “well-trained units possessing special skills (military police, for example) aren’t available in instant mix stored on a shelf until needed.” This is clearly true. It obviously takes time to build up an army and train them, and it takes time to groom officers.
But the thing is, we’ve had time. I think one of Rumsfeld and/or Bush’s key mistakes is that we haven’t made effective use of our available time and resources (the very point I make in the Opportunity cost and threat prioritization section of my Bush post). Recall, General Eric Shinseki came up with his troop estimate almost two years ago in February of 2003, before the invasion. We’ve had plenty of time to take the necessary steps to ensure sufficient troop levels by now. But Bush and Rumsfeld still have not done anything along these lines.
In fact, I find a strong parallel between Shinseki and Bush’s first chief economic advisor, Lawrence Lindsey. Before the war, Congress kept pressing the Bush administration for some estimate as to the cost of the Iraq invasion and occupation, and they kept getting stonewalled. Finally, Lindsey broke ranks and projected a cost of $100 billion to $200 billion. The White House angrily responded that this was way too high, and Bush soon fired Lindsey. Of course, his estimate, like Shinseki’s, has proven startlingly accurate.
While hindsight is 20/20, and there was no way of knowing at the time which estimate would be right or wrong, what I find very telling is how their projections were dealt with. A reasonable and sensible reaction would be to point out why these estimates were wrong and to provide better estimates along with an explanation of why they were better. Better yet would be to create contingency plans in case they turned out to be right (as it seems they have). Instead, what the Bush administration did was to simply downplay and ignore them. And indeed, such an approach fits the behavior expected of an administration that doesn’t particularly care about the actual real-world results, which was the case I was making — a case that Bush himself strengthens whenever he refuses to hold anybody accountable for such obvious mistakes, and instead gets rid of people who tell him things he doesn’t want to hear.
War of choice
And the thing is, time is really no excuse. Donna also said, “Rumsfeld was right, you go to war with the army you have.” But this is only true if you are the country being invaded. But Iraq did not invade the United States; we invaded them (and if you’re going to talk about 9/11, I’ve already discussed that here). Everything was done according to our timetable.
So if we did not have an army capable of dealing with the invasion and the occupation, we should merely have postponed the invasion until we did have that army, just like we did with the D-Day invasion of Normandy in World War II. Russia had been asking for second front since 1942, but we didn’t have the necessary military forces or landing craft to pull it off. Thus we delayed the invasion until 1944, when we finally did have the forces needed for the invasion to succeed. After all, you don’t bring a knife to a gunfight.
And the global situation was much more dire then. Even if Iraq was trying to develop nuclear weapons (and the Duelfer report confirmed that they weren’t), we still knew that the level of threat that Iraq posed to us and the world did not rival that of Iran or North Korea — let alone Nazi Germany. This means that the window of opportunity was much wider than the Bush administration depicted. So if we don’t have enough troops, the reason is not lack of time, but lack of planning (or, according to James Fallows, because all of the planning was willfully ignored).
Is it too late?
All that being said, there’s still the question of what we can do now. Because of the time factor, any increase in enlistment is not likely to bear results in time to make a difference. So, I suppose one could make the argument that the damage is done, it’s too late to add troops, and we have already lost the war for the hearts and minds of Iraqis. The same James Dobbins from above makes that exact case in a must-read piece from Foreign Affairs:
Keeping U.S. troops in Iraq will only provoke fiercer and more widespread resistance, but withdrawing them too soon could spark a civil war. The second administration of George W. Bush seems to be left with the choice between making things worse slowly or quickly.
The beginning of wisdom is to recognize that the ongoing war in Iraq is not one that the United States can win. As a result of its initial miscalculations, misdirected planning, and inadequate preparation, Washington has lost the Iraqi people’s confidence and consent, and it is unlikely to win them back. Every day that Americans shell Iraqi cities they lose further ground on the central front of Iraqi opinion.
While this is a very dark assessment, he does offer some hope:
The war can still be won — but only by moderate Iraqis and only if they concentrate their efforts on gaining the cooperation of neighboring states, securing the support of the broader international community, and quickly reducing their dependence on the United States.
But basically he’s saying that we’re stuck between a rock and a hard place because we’ve squandered our chances by not having enough troops on the ground while we still had a chance to win over hearts and minds.
In addition, Andrew Sullivan reports that Stratfor (a private intelligence agency) echoes this assessment. From their report (subscription required):
The issue facing the Bush administration is simple. It can continue to fight the war as it has, hoping that a miracle will bring successes in 2005 that didn’t happen in 2004. Alternatively, it can accept the reality that the guerrilla force is now self-sustaining and sufficiently large not to flicker out and face the fact that a U.S. conventional force of less than 150,000 is not likely to suppress the guerrillas. More to the point, it can recognize these facts: 1. The United States cannot re-engineer Iraq because the guerrillas will infiltrate every institution it creates. 2. That the United States by itself lacks the intelligence capabilities to fight an effective counterinsurgency. 3. That exposing U.S. forces to security responsibilities in this environment generates casualties without bringing the United States closer to the goal. 4. That the strain on the U.S. force is undermining its ability to react to opportunities and threats in the rest of the region. And that, therefore, this phase of the Iraq campaign must be halted as soon as possible.
Link via Dave Schuler of The Glittering Eye found via Praktike’s del.icio.us links on Iraq, which he started cuz of my post on del.icio.us CommentBlogging, to be ridiculously self-referential.
These perceptions match the view from the ground according to The Economist, a center-right publication that supported the war. Now they paint a grim picture:
…the insurgency…has deepened and spread almost every month since the occupation began. In mid-2003, Donald Rumsfeld, America’s defence secretary, felt able to dismiss the insurgents as “a few dead-enders”. Shortly after, official estimates put their number at 5,000 men, including many foreign Islamic extremists. That figure has been revised to 20,000, including perhaps 2,000 foreigners, not counting the thousands of hostile fighters American and British troops have killed; these are the crudest of estimates.
It seems so long ago when conservatives were trying their darnedest to spin the situation in Iraq to make it look like the insurgency was about to be crushed. It was always just around the corner. Most notable was Steven den Beste, and most spectacularly, Samizdata, which made the bubble-like mistake of drawing a straight-line projection from a two-month sample — while ignoring the previous months in order to get the trend they wanted.
Which is why I try not to get into the predictions game. I know I don’t know enough to make accurate ones, and as this seems to be true for most others as well, the typical reason they try is for partisan spin. So instead, I merely try my best to figure out what’s been going on. The article (which is another must-read) goes on:
Barely six months ago, Mosul was one of the most tranquil spots in Iraq. Now it is one of the most violent, and least policed. It may be no coincidence that, until last January, around 20,000 American troops were billeted in and around the city and led by a most dynamic commander. With troops urgently required elsewhere, they were replaced by 8,500 soldiers, around 700 of whom were diverted to Fallujah and Baghdad.
Thus harried, American commanders have abandoned the pretence of winning the love of Iraqis ahead of the scheduled vote. “Our broad intent is to keep pressure on the insurgents as we head into elections,” says General Casey. “This is not about winning hearts and minds; we’re not going to do that here in Iraq. It’s about giving Iraqis the opportunity to govern themselves.”
That could be possible if Iraqis would only accept the opportunity America is offering—which is not the case in Ramadi, for example. Though the city has more than 4,000 police, they refuse to work alongside American forces. According to the marines, the police’s sole act of co-operation is to collect wounded insurgents from their base. For most of the past four months, Anbar has had no provincial administration, since the governor resigned after his children were kidnapped. Elsewhere, America’s forces are incapable of giving Iraqis the security they crave because, quite simply, there aren’t enough of them.
Emphasis mine. It’s definitely not a good sign for the military to be giving up on the war for the hearts and minds of Iraqis.
And let me supply one last assessment. Dana Priest at The Washington Post reports that Iraq is now the new breeding ground for terrorists
Iraq has replaced Afghanistan as the training ground for the next generation of “professionalized” terrorists, according to a report released yesterday by the National Intelligence Council, the CIA director’s think tank.
Iraq provides terrorists with “a training ground, a recruitment ground, the opportunity for enhancing technical skills,” said David B. Low, the national intelligence officer for transnational threats. “There is even, under the best scenario, over time, the likelihood that some of the jihadists who are not killed there will, in a sense, go home, wherever home is, and will therefore disperse to various other countries.”
In other words, while the war in Afghanistan helped fight terrorism and make us more safe, it seems that the war in Iraq is now likely to make us less safe in the future. This, after costing hundreds of billions of tax dollars, tying up much of our military’s resources, costing the lives of more than one thousand American soldiers and countless Iraqi civilians, and disrupting the lives of many, many more American and Iraqi families. This is exactly why war should only be used as a last resort.
But yes, it could very well be that the war has already failed. What can we do now? As Dobbins suggests, we should try to minimize the damage as much as we can. But most importantly, we need to hold those responsible for it accountable as best as we can. Yes, our options are much more severely limited now because we’ve squandered our best opportunity. Just like we did in Iraq.
1 That Belmont Club post is the last in a series of three posts by wretchard on troop levels. Here is the first one and here is the second, the main points being that all occupations are different situations, that military effectiveness is not solely dependent upon troop levels, and that we might not have had the military capabilities needed for occupying Iraq. None of which argues whether we have enough troops or not, but just that it’s important to keep in mind that the situation is more complicated than just a simple numbers game. After all, you can supply plenty of troops and still lose if you deploy them poorly or fail to equip them properly. But of course, this doesn’t mean that numbers aren’t an important part of the equation. Return.
January 18, 2005 10:24 PM in Foreign Affairs, Politics | PermalinkWeblog: Liberals Against Terrorism
Excerpt:
Michael Totten and Ben P. of MyDD approach the problem of being a liberal hawk from opposite perspectives.
Totten is ups
Tracked: January 19, 2005 08:58 AM
I just skimmed this post. I won’t have time to read it carefully or to follow all your links for a day or two (who am I kidding… a week, at least!)
The only thing I’ll say so far is damn… did ya have to pull out ALL the big guns just to disagree with little ole me? LOL!!
Seriously, you bring up lots of good points, and off the top of my head, I still disagree with (without reading all your backup material) is that troop levels could have been increased by any significant number without a draft and without the prospect of an invading army threatening Europe or the U.S. Sadly, it will take 10-15 years to replace the strength eliminated in less than half that time.
And… we (the U.N.) have been in the Bosnia/Kosovo area for how long now? The biggest weapon won’t be used in Iraq until Jan. 30. I think one of the biggest mistakes was waiting so long to hold an election. But that’s just me, and my credentials are nil.
But nobody’s paying me for this opinion! :-)
Posted by Donna at 01/19/05, 07:18 AM (link)I think that about says it all. Nice work, sir.
Time to go drink.
Posted by praktike at 01/19/05, 11:12 AM (link)Donna: I won’t have time to read it carefully or to follow all your links for a day or two (who am I kidding… a week, at least!)
Perfectly understandable. Besides, it took me four weeks to get back to you.
Donna: I still disagree with (without reading all your backup material) is that troop levels could have been increased by any significant number without a draft and without the prospect of an invading army threatening Europe or the U.S. Sadly, it will take 10-15 years to replace the strength eliminated in less than half that time.
I do address the time aspect within the post. But in a nutshell, we only get one shot at the occupation, so just like with Normandy, we either wait until we have the forces to do the occupation right, or not at all. Otherwise, you just get end up with another Iran, where it’s not just the government that hates the U.S.
And however long you think it takes for us to be able to build up a force able to do the occupation right, how long do you think it’ll take the Iraqis to build up such a force? Well, that’s how long the occupation would have to last.
This was one of the main reasons I opposed the war. It was clear the Bush administration hadn’t really thought too much about the occupation. There were obvious signs. First, the Bush administration’s claim that it would cost less than the first Gulf War (which did not have an occupation). Secondly, when pressed for the length of the occupation, they would either say the vague and evasive, “As long as it takes,” or try to downplay the length by suggesting it would only take about two years or so. These answers were, at best, naive, and I thought so and said so at the time (I just hadn’t yet discovered blogs). And indicative that the administration didn’t particularly know or care whether the war would make things better or worse. Just like with the tax cut and steel tariffs.
Donna: damn… did ya have to pull out ALL the big guns just to disagree with little ole me? LOL!!
I was initially going to respond with a shorter comment, but then I realized as I was writing it that I didn’t really know what I was talking about, I merely had impressions. And for me to write something like that is just a waste of everybody’s time.
I suppose I could have instead pressed you to back up your “I don’t see where a massive increase in numbers would accomplish very much”, but that tack has always struck me as rather infantile, like siblings going, “Prove it!” “No, you prove it!” I might as well just do my homework, and that way, I learn a lot, my readers learn a lot, I get a great post out of it (hopefully good enough to draw traffic for both of us), and we all win.
And your comment was worthy of a proper and well-thought-through response — in contrast to the commenter I was debating with at Djerejian’s blog, who I think was using a straw man from the very beginning and treated me with much less respect than I gave him. And you can read that thread to see how I treated him and contrast that with here.
And “little ole me”? Hey, I’m the one who’s a little fishy of the blogosphere compared to you. :)
praktike: Nice work, sir.
Thank you!
praktike: Time to go drink.
What, at 11:12 AM in the morning? Oh wait, you’re on the East Coast, aren’t you? :)
Posted by fling93 at 01/19/05, 12:09 PM (link)so where am I gonna go for my analysis? The NY Times? Washington Post? Nope, good old blogosphere. Wonderful work fling! and proof (if anyone needs it) that high-paid wonks with checks depending on saying the right thing are no match for several million bloggers, a handful of whom can be counted on to come up with the most enlightening posts on any given topic, on any given day. The trick is finding the handful on that topic.
Donna is right tho about one thing: more troops = draft. Sorry.
But if Cheney gets his way and invades Iran, well … what then? His Israel-Iran comments on the news recently (sorry no time to link) suggest, if Bush Admin MO is anything to go by, that they are paving the way to an Israeli attack on Iran which will trigger retaliation, which will in turn bring the rest of the world into the war that I think the US wants. In which case the draft will happen sooner than you can say, “controling oil supplies before china gets em.”
Now this might be “conspiracy,” (tho I don,t know how anyone can use that word any more with a straight face) but as early as April 2002 (1 yr before the iraq invasion), I read a New Yorker article outlining exactly the plan … start talking wmd to pave the way for invasion, regardless of what happens at the UN. 1 yr later, lo, it happened as planned.
So: will ther US be in Iran 2 yrs from now, with a new draft? I put my money on yes.
We’ll see. I hope not.
Posted by hugh at 01/24/05, 07:13 PM (link)On the one hand, it wouldn’t surprise me, as the main arguments that the administration used for the war in Iraq were more applicable to Iran (WMDs and ties to terrorism). So I’d have mixed feelings about it. On the one hand, I’d be glad our priorities are more in line with reality. On the other hand, I can’t see Iran accepting a U.S. occupation after the fiasco that was Operation Ajax and their subsequent overthrow of the shah.
Besides, I don’t see how we could pull it off logistically unless we are planning on leaving either Iraq or Iran without any occupation troops (which would then be a huge breeding ground for terrorists). Or with a large number of non-U.S. troops, but it’ll be harder to sell an invasion of Iran after we proved to be wrong about WMDs in Iraq (“fool me once, shame on you…”).
So I’ve thought that our best bet would have been to merely threaten them with invasion, and try to extract concessions that way. Now, with the situation in Iraq, everybody knows an invasion of Iran is unlikely. So maybe these rumors are just a way to try to let Iran know that an invasion isn’t completely ruled out. I dunno.
Posted by fling93 at 01/24/05, 07:43 PM (link)I didn’t read all the other comments in too great of detail- so ignore me if I’m repeating anything. Increasing the troop level in Iraq, with out question would require some type of draft. How do I know? I’m in the military. I work on a base where every unit is severely undermanned already, And when we are deployed our numbers thin out. Our deployment length has even been increased ffrom four months to six months. So, in order to adequately increase troop levels, with out extending deployement lengths any farther, would be to initiate a draft.
Posted by Crys at 01/25/05, 02:37 AM (link)Thanks for the comment! I don’t mean to imply that we have enough people in the military. I’m just saying that there are ways to increase the numbers without a draft. To do this while keeping it a volunteer army, you need to increase the number of volunteers. As I mentioned, one way to do this is to increase the pay, thus attracting more people (albeit, this will eventually see diminishing returns).
Another way is to tap into the strong current of nationalism that we’ve had ever since 9/11. We haven’t had the equivalent of the WWII “I Want You” recruitment drives for the War on Terror. Indeed, as Sebastian Holsclaw noted, “…one of Bush’s large failings in the past year is a failure to communicate how the common citizen really is connected to the war in the outside world.” Plenty of people want to contribute, and the administration isn’t tapping into this.
Indeed, there are always ways people can contribute that aren’t connected to the military, like those War Bonds in WWII. In our case, we could lessen the amount of money flowing to countries like Saudi Arabia, Syria, and Iran by reducing our dependence on oil. Even if the administration doesn’t want to impose a gas tax or oil import fee, it could still encourage people to contribute to the War on Terror by carpooling and buying hybrid vehicles (like many neocons seem to be doing).
But there’s none of this. As I commented at Sebastian’s blog, my suspicion is that this is because the administration wants the war to have as low a profile as possible, so average people aren’t thinking about it, and thus also won’t question it. This is similar to LBJ’s rationale for not raising taxes to pay for the Vietnam War (and his failure to do so was a key reason we had rampant inflation in the 70’s).
I don’t know whether we could raise enough troops short of a draft, but there are definitely steps the administration could take to boost enrollment, and they aren’t taking them.
Posted by fling93 at 01/25/05, 01:11 PM (link)We don’t have the troops to invade iran while we hold iraq. And people say it takes 2 years to get new troops trained adequately.
Right away that tells me we have a problem. What if someday we get into a war where we take losses? We can’t replace them. So in the long run we need better ways to train our troops, or better tactics that don’t need so much training. But in the short run it means we don’t have the troops.
We could do airstrikes.
We could do little raids. Send in the special forces, do pinpoint strikes and depend on our ability to get away before they can hit at our small lightly-armored units. Hit them for awhile and go home.
But here’s something we could do. We could support the kurds in an invasion. If they invaded iran we could give them air support. If they could hold off the iranians with our air support, they might take a big chunk of iran that had mostly kurds living in it. And if they could extend that to a port then we could supply them without having to go through iraq or turkey. They’d have a kurdish nation with lots of oil and it would be completely dependent on us. They’d do the dying and wouldn’t need US troops except maybe a few elite units to help out and advisors to provide communication with the air force. The iranian kurds would want to train as quickly as possible so they could fight too.
Maybe we could change the balance of power in the region. It makes more sense than threatening to invade iran with troops we don’t have.
Posted by J Thomas at 02/05/05, 01:35 PM (link)No worries, I’ll delete the duplicates. There!
And I assume you were being tongue in cheek, right?
Posted by fling93 at 02/05/05, 10:53 PM (link)No, I was not joking.
I don’t think it’s a good idea to support a kurdish invasion of iran, but it is something we could do and might do.
Here is the logic. We want to invade iran but we don’t have the troops. So we need proxy troops. What army can we get to invade iran? Nobody is available except the kurds. The kurds want to liberate their people in iran. They are the obvious candidates.
They need a to capture a port, otherwise they’re landlocked and surrounded by unfriendly neighbors. If they get more oil, so much the better.
All we’d have to supply is the arms and the air power, and a few advisors. They would have the ground troops to put in harm’s way.
Afterward the kurds would have a nominal 60% of iraqi oil plus however much of the iranian oil they take. The iraqi travesty of a military would obviously be no match for the kurdish army; they would be in a great bargaining position if they wanted to be part of iraq. And they would be 100% dependent on the USA, they would be our only real ally in the middle east.
It wouldn’t solve the problem of iranian nukes, but it would certainly distract the american public from that insoluble problem. If we hit iranian nuclear sites while we were providing close air support for the kurds it would be all confused; people wouldn’t complain that we didn’t hit all the sites because we wouldn’t have to admit we intended to hit all the sites, we were just supporting the kurds however we noticed to help them.
There are lots of obvious disadvantates, like world opinion and what happens if the kurds lose, and what happens next year or the year after next or the year after that if the iranians keep attacking, etc. But when have little things like that stopped this administration?
The logic is clear. We want to invade iran. Our army can’t do it. The kuds have an army and they want to invade iran too. It’s a no-brainer.
Posted by J Thomas at 02/06/05, 05:11 AM (link)I don’t think it’s a good idea to support a kurdish invasion of iran, but it is something we could do and might do.
Ah, that was where I was confused. It sounded like you were suggesting this.
Actually sounds quite plausible. The one thing is that how we placate Turkey? It’s one thing to help Kurds in an uprising. It’s quite another to have them invade another country to liberate their people and create their own state. As I understand it, Turkey is the only reason that partitioning the Sunnis, Shiites, and Kurds wasn’t an option.
Posted by fling93 at 02/06/05, 09:55 AM (link)One option — tell the new kurds they’re part of iraq now. There are various problems with that but Bush could ignore them.
Another option — call it kurdistan and let the turks object. There are various problems with that but Bush could ignore them.
Posted by J Thomas at 02/06/05, 12:48 PM (link)There are various problems with that but Bush could ignore them.
Ain’t that the truth.
Posted by fling93 at 02/07/05, 04:56 PM (link)interesting stats on drops in enrollment in US military academies: here
Yeah, that’s what happens when you aren’t up front with the people in the military on what they will be doing and for how long.
To be sure, projecting estimates like this is difficult, but you need to make an honest attempt at it so that if you turn out to be wrong, you can at least explain the exact reasons why the estimate was wrong, what the new estimate is, and what you did differently to make sure you didn’t make that same mistake again. They have no idea how big the insurgency is right now, and they can’t tell the soldiers why they got it wrong because they never really tried to figure out how big it was in the first place, but instead just tried to downplay it as much as possible (not even admitting it was an insurgency at first).
And blowing them off with the “need to know basis” thing or whatnot doesn’t work too well in a volunteer army. But maybe the Kurds won’t mind, since they have more to gain and less to lose.
Posted by fling93 at 02/09/05, 11:22 AM (link)I would suggest it’s also what happens when you start wars in far flung corners of the world that have little or nothing to do with the day-to-day lives of the volunteers you wish to recruit. Put another way, the “freedom of the iraqi people” might be a nice idea in principle (tho in my opinion a far-fetched rationale for an american war), but it’s gonna take more than that, I think, to convince a whole lot of people, in the long run, to go risk their lives for the cause. Defending america is one thing, but spreading freedom with american blood isn’t going to sell so well, I don’t think.
Of course iraqi freedom is a small (and I’d argue relatively insignificant) part of the picture, but the bigger picture is a hell of a harder sell, right now. But the salesforce is at work! And who knows what’ll happen next.
Time will tell.
Posted by hugh at 02/09/05, 05:56 PM (link)hugh: it’s also what happens when you start wars in far flung corners of the world that have little or nothing to do with the day-to-day lives of the volunteers you wish to recruit.
Good point. I know the administration’s argument is that Iraq is part of the war on terror, but of course, that CIA report I cited earlier on Iraq becoming a breeding ground for terrorism makes that argument harder to sell now.
I suppose it could still be valid in the long term if democracy takes hold, but it’s probably clear that I’m not convinced this administration is willing to devote enough resources to ensure that.
Posted by fling93 at 02/09/05, 06:43 PM (link)well to be honest i think the “war on terror” much like “iraqi freedom” are just tiny little fractions, mostly irrelevant, of what’s really going on - all of which has been laid out pretty clearly by the administration and its key players in various foreign policy docs — without any help from lefty conspiracy theorists like me!
but that’s a much longer discussion…
Posted by hugh at 02/09/05, 07:53 PM (link)also:
that CIA report I cited earlier on Iraq becoming a breeding ground for terrorism makes that argument harder to sell now.
It’s funny about those timelines - there were many people BEFORE the invasion (including CIA “dissidents”) saying that invading and occupying iraq would have 3 consequences:
1. massive violent strife, likely leading to civil war as sunnis, shiia and kurds vie for power in the political vaccum
2. creation of a hotbed of terrorism (where little or none had existed before)
3. destabilization of entire ME region.
well,
1. is happening, though not yet at full scale civil war, x fingers that it doesn’t explode
2. yup - that’s just what’s happened
3. ??? we’ll see - what happens with shiia (60% of pop) control of iraq, closer ties to iran…or kurdish push for independent state, with anti-kurd turkey on border rattling sabers?
maybe all will turn up roses, who knows, but I don’t think there is enough interest in roses.
Posted by mackinaw at 02/10/05, 07:46 AM (link)To be fair, there were also a lot of liberal predictions that didn’t come true, like Saddam shooting missiles at Israel, using chemical weapons on our troops, slow building to building fighting in Baghdad, and a flood of refugees.
So it’s pretty hard to tell what’s going to happen.
Posted by fling93 at 02/10/05, 03:42 PM (link)True enough, lots of people said lots of different things. Still, to nitpick, I would argue that the points you cite have to do with particular tactics or strategic decisions (how the iraqis chose to fight the war - chemical weapons, missles to israel, building to building), and a function of the levels of destruction or lack of (refugees).
whereas the other “predictions” (civil strife, blooming terrorism, and regional destabilization) are macro assessments of what was likely to happen when you create a power vaccum in a country with three heavily armed distinct and not very friendly groups, little recent history of democratic success, and place an understaffed army hated by some iraqis and many neighbours, in the middle of a country bordering on all sorts of populations probably happy enough to take pot shots, if they had the chance. regardless of the intentions, I don’t think anyone in their right minds would have claimed that the US action would be popular in neigbouring countries.
and I guess to be snarky I would add, there were no chemical weapons to be found, precious few missles capable of hitting israel, an insurgency right now that you might call building-to-building, and I suspect if you took a bus tour of fallujah you would find your refugees.
But again these are, from my standpoint, details in a way - there is a much more important question than how well the campaign went and goes, and who was right about what predictions…that is, how should people and nations conduct themselves in the world. Tho I am so far off the map of the liberal/left-right/conservative spectrum that I probably wouldn’t be much good at convincing even the most bleeding heart dean supporter to my camp!
Hugh, why not go ahead and explain your ideas? I might be farther off the map than the mosdt bleeding-heart dean supporter, but it can’t hurt to have two people instead of just one.
Posted by J Thomas at 02/11/05, 06:26 PM (link)hey fling,
back to my arguements on AI, thought this link is of great value, and speaks to the distaste I have for North Americans talking about how the world, or, say, iraqis, are better off after wars we launch …
Here is Khalid Jarrar talking about his impressions of life in Iraq. Better? Worse?
Link here.
Posted by mackinaw at 03/01/05, 06:42 AM (link)